Suggestion Healer Specs and More

[Licksterboy]

Hello heros! I've been playing healer specs for my entire Herocraft career and I've noticed a few things. I want to suggest/point out a few things in this topic, please give feedback!

Hero Titles: I first wanted to start off with a thought I had, Herocraft has so many titles, some very odd ones and some very cool ones, but I have noticed there is one missing that would be really fun to strive for. It would be a title you unlock after mastering all four specs of a class. Meaning if I mastered cleric, mystic, bloodmage, and disciple, I would unlock a title that represents all four classes, for example: Preserver.

Cleric: I started playing as cleric a week or two ago, and to be honest, it's pretty over powered. As a level 44 cleric, I was able to defeat mastered wizards, dread knights, rangers, bloodmages, necros, pyromancers, and many more. It was a lot of fun to pvp against these classes, but I know that healer classes are supposed to lack melee damage and combat skill since they should be healing/supporting rather than fighting.

Anyways, I was able to chant nonstop, smite every 4 seconds, and even make myself invulnerable when I had low health to heal more! I really like the idea of cleric being solely support, but atm it can hold it's own weight in 2v1s. Furthermore, to give you a better idea of what I am talking about, I was able to rank 2 today in /skirmish top. Does anyone else feel that this shouldn't be the case, please, for the players I defeated in skirmish, share your thoughts.

I suggest cleric faces some increased skill cool down time, and maybe even a health nerf, I love having 995 hp and level 60, but cleric is really turning into a tanky class. I would rather have the mana costs of skills left alone because I already run out of mana pretty quickly in a fight. In conclusion, most of us can agree that something needs to be done.

Mystic: This class is kind of sketchy at the moment, it's a really fun class, a good healing class, but it is still very combat able. I still suggest some more cd or mana increases on specific skills.

Pray: Mystic really doesn't need pray, I think pray should stick to the more divine classes like cleric and paladin.

Rejuvenate: I can't believe I am saying this, but I think rejuvenate needs a buff. Everyone was happy when it was heavily nerfed, but atm it only heals (self) 168 health over a course of 15 seconds, thats not good at all.

I was also thinking of a skill being added to mystic, maybe something like group rejuvenate, causing all party members to rejuvenate 200 health over the course of 15 seconds. I only say this because it would make mystic a more team supporter. When I play mystic, I can really only heal one player efficiently, while cleric can heal many players greatly and now even bloodmage can too.

Bloodmage: http://www.herocraftonline.com/main/threads/bloodmage-ideas.30044/#post-266707

I would love to see bloodmage become more support like, and emphasizing sacrifice.

Disciple: I don't know much about disciple, from what I have heard, most people claim it to be a bad class (UP) and from a few I hear it is still a decent pvp class. Thoughts on disciple anyone? I don't have many ideas for it except maybe an hp increase, it is kind of little atm.

Thanks everyone for reading, these are just some rough suggestions, obviously what I suggested does not have to be done exactly the way I said it. Sorry for any typos/grammatical errors.

STDs4YouAnd4Me I know you play healer classes, I've talked to you before about changes/opinions about them, please share!

Dsawemd I've seen your comments in chat (skirmishing with me ), perhaps you have some suggestions?

 

[Dsawemd]

Ha! most polite, nice post I have been tagged in that basically says "I whooped ur ass, care to talk about it?"

My experience with Healer roles: I played Cleric when it was very strong on Zeal. Played disc a very little bit too. Its always fun to have one healer spec that can attract players to the Healer path with its 1v1 power/potential. Cleric does seem a bit strong, and should be forced to narrow down their role in combat.

Mystics: I like your suggestion to make Rejuvenate apply to party members, would require balancing of other aspects of the skill. Mystic is like the AoE healer (edit: aren't they?), more of that would be great. Also all Rangers hate BatFury, gj implementing a cool skill

Bloodmage: Just became so much more amazing, not in terms of power, but in terms of potential. A class that uses health to deal damage, but can heal? And when it runs out of mana, it can use health for mana then heal again? Thats awesome!
Not too strong at all though. With Bloodbond emphasizing BMs in 2v2's, I think Bloodmage knows what kind of healer it is.

In comparison ->
Cleric still doesn't know what kind of healer it is, tanky solo healer or less tanky melee healer (Clerics like to stay in your face and heal and smite and *Might* click spam, and that doesn't require the kind of skill seen in the other healer classes).

Disciple: This class's skills recently became more noticeable to me. They did not do more damage, just more throwing around. If we ever need to buff that again, give Disciples something that lets them get the target in the air (even more often than IronFist). Once your feet leave the ground, disc skills send you flying. But before we do that, I think discipline could use more punching power. Just a little bit though. Disc's tend to faceroll time and time again, then leave to heal. But if you chase them down once, they die. I would like to hear which class has a hard time with disciple at the moment.

Overall I would say that we need more experience with Disciple, and the new BM, on the server. Its hard to balance without tests. And take away some cleric group utility to make up for its solo abilities.

TLR Cleric reminds me of Zeal Cleric (lol strong), BM and Disciple both have had great adjustments to mechanic/play style complexity recently, and need some testing, so go pvp.

 

[LightningCape]

Bloodmage: http://www.herocraftonline.com/main/threads/bloodmage-ideas.30044/#post-266707

I would love to see bloodmage become more support like, and emphasizing sacrifice.

I don't think Bloodmage should go in that direction.

Mystic: This class is kind of sketchy at the moment, it's a really fun class, a good healing class, but it is still very combat able. I still suggest some more cd or mana increases on specific skills.

When I play mystic, I can really only heal one player efficiently, while cleric can heal many players greatly and now even bloodmage can too.

Those healing skills on Bloodmages weren't 100% needed so it's not really fair to say the entire class must now swing over to one side of the spectrum just because it got a few unnecessary tweaks. Still very combat able? Mystic only has 2 attacks for crying out load. Main one does 100 light damage, and the other one has a 40+ sec cd which they can only get at lvl 60 and considering it's a very slow class to level in the first place it's not that easy getting there. Increasing mana costs and cds would utterly destroy the class. It's already been nerfed and changed at least 2-3 times.

The reason these classes seem to be perpetually unbalanced is because people have been picking at them for a while. This is what I don't want to have happen to Bm.

 

[Dsawemd]

Its hard to balance healers, and healing, in a game where the test population is so small and contains so many outliers/variations in skill. There are a lot of reasons why. Thats what I think, and I rated the post disagree but I don't mean for the whole post ^ lightning.

 

[Licksterboy]

Amazing feedback Dsawemd! I too want to emphasize mystic becoming an AoE healer, like I said earlier, it only has target heals which makes it less and less efficient the more people in a party. I'm also glad you see the point to BM, I'm so excited to see what is planned for the class, I am almost tingling! Lol

Lightning, I have noticed something about you and that is you are very protective over BM. Obviously there is nothing wrong with that, but change can be good! I don't know why you aren't so happy about bloodbond or the fact that we want change, but nothing bad has happened to BM, it's only gotten better! I also want to say that you don't want BM to become more support or emphasize sacrifice, but that is what the class is, it even says so on the wiki. You should also know that mystic is definitely combat able. It still never dies, it can root, smite every 4 seconds, block attacks with bat fury, and even throw in a bolt once in a while.

 

[Scycor]

Hmm, considering I had a 4 man team of disciples last map (DG) I know quite a lot about them. I know they have gotten some re-work this map and when I became active again I started playing as one. I soon switched from Disciple due to lag reasons which made my Forcepush/Forcepull work 25-50% of the time. That may have been on my part, but there really is no way to fix that issue. I think when the lag is down, Disciples are good enough as they are... You just have to know how to use them right.

 

[madpear]

Lick, I've only played Cleric, but I should think your long-winded description of the class amounts to you negating yourself. First you say you can Chant and Smite "non-stop". Then, to close the description, you say you run out of mana pretty quickly. Then your conclusion is the class needs a nerf. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The fact is, users of the class can use up their mana very quickly to good effect. Then they have to wait... and wait some more for their mana pool to recover. This is the intent. They can nuke, heal, repeat, run out of mana, then be helpless. Their strength is brief conflicts, not sustained work. Additionally, your assertion that their melee damage is on par with melee classes is bunk. They can use a hoe, which can be enchanted by... nothing. All melee classes get to use swords which can and should be enchanted to be much more powerful than the base weapon. Finally, the fact that you did well for a day in skirmish doesn't really say much. You've clearly spent more time on the game, on the healing classes in particular, and taken a much more proactive approach to tactics than your average HC'er, thus you beat a lot of average HC'ers in skirmish. Count me as not surprised. I like Cleric and don't see a need for change.

 

[Dsawemd]

This is the intent. They can nuke, heal, repeat, run out of mana, then be helpless. Their strength is brief conflicts, not sustained work. .... I like Cleric and don't see a need for change.

If you are talking about Cleric for the above snippet, then I am not taking you seriously right now, because you do not seem to know what you are talking about (I included the final snip to highlight what also appears to be some bias issues <3). I will join the others in giving you a Lovebox, though.

 

[Goonswarm]

I think your description of Cleric is very unfair. If you were able to defeat enemies 2v1, then your enemies fought at some disadvantage or were outright bad. Cleric right now struggles 1v1 in that to stay a skilled foe off, you need cooldowns and near all your mana depending on spec.

Finally, the game is not balanced around 1v1's or 2v1's, and this should be remembered. Cleric does well in groups as it is designed, healers are not meant and are not solopwnmobiles.

 

[Licksterboy]

Madpear, you are missing my point. You claim that cleric should be able to nuke, then heal, nuke some more and then run out of mana. My point is that this shouldn't be happening (the nuking part anyway). This also happens to every class on the server, they can go all out but will eventually run out of mana/stamina. As we all know, clerics and mystics shouldn't be fighting on the front lines, yet, this is happening.

I think your description of Cleric is very unfair. If you were able to defeat enemies 2v1, then your enemies fought at some disadvantage or were outright bad. Cleric right now struggles 1v1 in that to stay a skilled foe off, you need cooldowns and near all your mana depending on spec.

Finally, the game is not balanced around 1v1's or 2v1's, and this should be remembered. Cleric does well in groups as it is designed, healers are not meant and are not solopwnmobiles.

I am glad you feel this way, I too do not think healers were meant to be solopwnmobiles, but this is what's happening. I don't know how you are fighting as a cleric, but I can certainly tell you that I as a cleric do not struggle 1v1. To be honest, I am amazed that someone hasn't made a topic about cleric yet.

 

[madpear]

First off, there is no such thing as any line BUT the front in Herocraft. I'm sorry, but there is no concept of "hanging back" in this game, everybody is involved, so sue me if I melee as a Cleric. The fact is, regardless of your opinion, a Cleric's melee does far less damage at best than ANY warrior class. See facts below (yes, there is more to it than max strike damage, but this is just to give a basic idea):

Cleric w/ Diamond Hoe: 38dmg @L60. No enchants available. w/ Might => ~47dmg
Samurai w/ Diamond Sword: 91dmg @L60. 7 sword enchantments available.
Ninja w/ Diamond Sword: 106dmg @L60. 7 sword enchantments available.
Runeblade w/ Diamond Sword: 98dmg @L60. 7 sword enchantments available.

There, right out of the gate I can name 3 classes that put Cleric melee damage to shame. Want a front-line class, take one of those. Also, what bearing does my preference have? Obviously I'm arguing for what I want to happen, then giving justification, it's what you do when you have an opinion. Is Barack Obama's opinion that school shootings are a tragedy invalid simply because he has children in school and his stake in his children thereby repudiates everything he says on the topic? Yes, I like Cleric as is. My character is anything but a solopwnmobile. Congrats for apparently doing well in a skirmish, but please, come fight an Umbra non-Cleric and get your backside handed to you trying to use your imba "100 dmg Smite". Ummmm, 1 sword hit?????? pear out

 

[Dsawemd]

To mad

snip

Again, some fool (edit: was reading on iphone, did not notice it was the same person as before) doing things like comparing cleric melee damage to ninjas runeblades and samurai. That has little possible application to this discussion.

And you tried to use a recent tragedy, or the politics surrounding it, to make a point. I don't like that.

 

[RaepSoda]

"Clerics are the guardians of the Multiverse. These souls wished nothing more than to protect others, so this ability they were given. Clerics travel in the company of others, aiding them in both combat and support. Rumor has it that some Clerics are such devotees of life, they can pull souls back from the brink of death and resurrect their fallen allies. With their weapons and their magics, a cleric is a powerful ally, and an equally powerful enemy." HC Wiki

That, and with the armor Clerics have, I think it's safe to say that the Cleric was designed with the intent of it being a "front lines" healer.

Cleric: I started playing as cleric a week or two ago, and to be honest, it's pretty over powered. As a level 44 cleric, I was able to defeat mastered wizards, dread knights, rangers, bloodmages, necros, pyromancers, and many more. It was a lot of fun to pvp against these classes, but I know that healer classes are supposed to lack melee damage and combat skill since they should be healing/supporting rather than fighting.

Anyways, I was able to chant nonstop, smite every 4 seconds, and even make myself invulnerable when I had low health to heal more! I really like the idea of cleric being solely support, but atm it can hold it's own weight in 2v1s. Furthermore, to give you a better idea of what I am talking about, I was able to rank 2 today in /skirmish top. Does anyone else feel that this shouldn't be the case, please, for the players I defeated in skirmish, share your thoughts.

I have so many problems with this it's not even comical. Your argument is that you've done well with it in skirmish. So it's OP. There's no meat to your argument at all, it's almost hearsay.

My opinion on Cleric? I believe it's a good class, and I do believe it shines in 1v1 combat. But the thing is, Herocraft's pvp experience wasn't designed around 1v1 encounters. So using 1v1 skirmish to back up your claim that Cleric is OP, sounds downright silly to me.

Edit:

To mad

Again, some fool doing things like comparing cleric melee damage to ninjas runeblades and samurai. That has little possible application to this discussion.

And you tried to use a recent tragedy, or the politics surrounding it, to make a point. I don't like that.

While his attitude was wrong, at least he did use stats and comparisons to back his argument up. Lick's argument lacks everything but "well I did well in skirmish, so cleric is OP" and "I don't think Clerics should be front line fighters".

 

[Licksterboy]

I find it funny how you guys don't see cleric as an OP class. Its also unfair for you both (madpear and Raepsoda) to say that balance does not revolve around 1v1 because depening on your class and the pair up of classes will determine any 1v1, 2v2 etc. The only thing is, is that I am able to prevail in almost any 1v1 and it's almost certain the clerics team will win in 2v2 or 3v3. Furthermore, I certainly did back up my argument, I don't know what else you want me to say, I mean look at madpear, he is comparing two obvious and ridiculous things, of course cleric melee damage is less, but that doesn't mean it still isn't strong. I also want to say, the fact that I am complaining about cleric isn't because I did well in skirmish with any old class, it's because I did well as a cleric, the same thing happene to mystic before it was nerfed, it beat any class in 1v1 and I can definitely tell you it could 2v1 in some cases.

What also troubles me is that you guys say that cleric should be strong in 1v1, that is true, kind of, but healers are more of a kiting class than any, that's what surprises me because I don't have to kite as a cleric.

 

[LightningCape]

I'm not over protective of Bm I just I'm sick of unbalanced classes and don't want more to be made.
Edit-
It doesn't really make sense to judge all class on how they fair in 1v1 Skirmish because it has few variables and all classes are given their best gear. Reading over the postings it seems skirmish is used quite allot as an example.

 

[Dsawemd]

I believe that skirmish is a good place to start when looking at basic 1v1 pvp balance, as long as we remember that in the world, there are escape routes, times to eat, larger groups, etc., that you would not see in a skirmish.

At the same time, you have to remember that classes like beguiler, bard, and bloodmage can not be judged based on their solo abilities as they are different utility roles.

edit: remember 1v1 =/ skirmish, instead it represents a time when two classes meet one on one in Herocraft.

 

[Licksterboy]

I'm not over protective of Bm I just I'm sick of unbalanced classes and don't want more to be made.
Edit-
It doesn't really make sense to judge all class on how they fair in 1v1 Skirmish because it has few variables and all classes are given their best gear. Reading over the postings it seems skirmish is used quite allot as an example.

What I am trying to say is that just because skills are being added to BM doesn't make it unbalanced. Besides, we won't ever know if it will become unbalance if we don't try.

 

[RaepSoda]

I find it funny how you guys don't see cleric as an OP class. Its also unfair for you both (madpear and Raepsoda) to say that balance does not revolve around 1v1 because depening on your class and the pair up of classes will determine any 1v1, 2v2 etc. The only thing is, is that I am able to prevail in almost any 1v1 and it's almost certain the clerics team will win in 2v2 or 3v3. Furthermore, I certainly did back up my argument, I don't know what else you want me to say, I mean look at madpear, he is comparing two obvious and ridiculous things, of course cleric melee damage is less, but that doesn't mean it still isn't strong. I also want to say, the fact that I am complaining about cleric isn't because I did well in skirmish with any old class, it's because I did well as a cleric, the same thing happene to mystic before it was nerfed, it beat any class in 1v1 and I can definitely tell you it could 2v1 in some cases.

What also troubles me is that you guys say that cleric should be strong in 1v1, that is true, kind of, but healers are more of a kiting class than any, that's what surprises me because I don't have to kite as a cleric.

Now, I could be wrong, but I'm fairly positive that Kainzo himself has stated that HC isn't balanced based around 1v1. 2v2? I'm willing to bet a Sammy and Ninja duo would beat, let's say, Ranger and Cleric. That's a little bit of an unfair example, but the point is that just because there is a Cleric on one team, doesn't ensure victory. It because almost an entirely different game when two Players can focus on one enemy and dump all of their skills. 3v3? That's even more variables thrown into the mix.

It seems to me that the more players that are involved in a fight, the less of an impact a Cleric's 1v1 capabilities have.

But no, you apparently want to judge Cleric based on 1v1 skirmishes. >.>

Shall we judge Paladin as well based on skirmish? Sure, why not?

-Paladin does 58dmg compared to Cleric 47 hoe damage with Might. So a Paladin beats Cleric in terms of melee.

-Paladin's armor reduces a whopping 72% compared to a Cleric's 52%. Obvious winner.

-Paladin has 1055 HP, compared to Cleric's 955. It's a small margin of 100hp.

-Mana is where Paladin loses out to Cleric. Paladin only has 135 mana compared to Cleric's 218.

-Skills. This is where it gets tricky. But it seems that Paladin has multiple damaging skills with other effects, compared to Cleric's Smite that does 100dmg with no added effects. Paladin also has less healing skills, but makes up for that with skills like Disarm, Shield, Divine Stun and Shield Reflect. Let's also not forget that Paladin also has Invuln.

It should also be noted that in a 1v1 Skirmish, Paladins can use just about all of their skills aside from Taunt. Can't say the same for Cleric. Ampul is useless and a bad skill to begin with. Revive does nothing. Clerics can use Group Heal, but why spend 25 mana for 210 HP when you can spend the same mana on chant for 350 HP?

So based on that comparison, and the fact that Paladin's have beaten me (60 Cleric) in skirmish, would you say Paladin is OP? I mean, if Cleric is OP, and you're basing that on skirmish 1v1s, why wouldn't Paladin be considered OP as well?

 

[Jack_Reacher]

Obviously I'm arguing for what I want to happen, then giving justification, it's what you do when you have an opinion. Is Barack Obama's opinion that school shootings are a tragedy invalid simply because he has children in school and his stake in his children thereby repudiates everything he says on the topic?

And you tried to use a recent tragedy, or the politics surrounding it, to make a point. I don't like that.

Dsa, he was just using an example. All he was saying is that: "Just because you have a stake in the matter, it doesn't mean that you're automatically incorrect."

And I agree with RaepSoda - just because some class can kill you in 1v1 doesn't mean it's imbalanced. As a Beguiler, it is difficult to defeat Samurais in 1v1 skirmishes. On a whole however, this does not mean that Samurais are OP.

 

[Scycor]

What you guys don't seem to be realizing is he's saying "Clerics are for support, they shouldn't be able to win easily in a fight alone". That in itself is a true statement... Last map I was Master Cleric as well as master Druid/Disciple and I know full and well they are very good class. Cleric should be focused on healing rather than doing damage.

Madpear, you are also saying how a Cleric's weapon is doing less than others, but again.. That is not what he's trying to get across to you. He's trying to say Clerics can just hit you, get low health and then heal up again while the enemy stays at a very low HP amount. Let me give you an example.

Cleric vs... I don't know.. Ninja.

-Ninja is constantly using his skills on Cleric while the cleric is fighting back.
-Cleric damages Ninja about 3 hearts but runs away and heals.
-Cleric comes back fighting Ninja with full hearts and deals 3 more hearts of damage.
-Cleric runs away and heals up (repeat the cycle)

So Lickster is basically trying to tell you they are doing to much damage and too efficiently... at least that's what I think he's trying to say. I mean, of course if you are a Cleric you will disagree.