Towns that are just an Undercity

[Celvick]

I have seen a few towns this map that just have an Undercity and have little to nothing above ground. (Like just a small 4x4 hut) I am wondering if this is legal. I was told that box towns are illegal, so I would assume that a town that only has an Undercity is also illegal, could I get someone from staff to confirm this? Couldn't get a solid answer in Help chat.

 

[Eldrylars]

No, they are perfectly legal at this point, as long as they are small.

Since there are no PRs people are being told to use Towns as a PR and many are.
Large cities that are boxes and eyesores are still being checked and dealt with, since chunk underground towns, or even larger townships that are just an entry point on the surface are acceptable, although I with there were more towns putting themselves out there and making nice builds then there are atm.

 

[Dielan9999]

This will never not be a problem with Herocraft @Celvick

I mean, even if a town builds a beautiful city above the ground, all of the valuables, things they don't want raiders to steal - will be hidden in vaults underground at the very least. People will also build themselves bunkers underground so they can go about their daily lives while their township is under siege. It's been that way ever since Zeal map when PVP in townships was first allowed. Over time, as maps came and wiped the same groups of herocrafters would get together and build smarter and safer, which doesn't have to be ugly, but I have found is often times empty and sad. Many wouldn't want to risk the material lost if you were to carry expensive and pretty materials outside to build a structure, when you could just live underground. Underground cities CAN be pretty!


Source: Last time I ran a Kingdom, the towns were beautiful, but all our stuff was still locked up safe underground and never stolen - but many attempts were made and we were lucky.

 

[Celvick]

This will never not be a problem with Herocraft @Celvick

I mean, even if a town builds a beautiful city above the ground, all of the valuables, things they don't want raiders to steal - will be hidden in vaults underground at the very least. People will also build themselves bunkers underground so they can go about their daily lives while their township is under siege. It's been that way ever since Zeal map when PVP in townships was first allowed. Over time, as maps came and wiped the same groups of herocrafters would get together and build smarter and safer, which doesn't have to be ugly, but I have found is often times empty and sad. Many wouldn't want to risk the material lost if you were to carry expensive and pretty materials outside to build a structure, when you could just live underground. Underground cities CAN be pretty!


Source: Last time I ran a Kingdom, the towns were beautiful, but all our stuff was still locked up safe underground and never stolen - but many attempts were made and we were lucky.

I wasn't asking if it was legal to build an UC I was asking if it was legal for an entire town to only be an UC. If box towns are illegal, I would think that towns that are ONLY an UC would also be illegal.

 

[TimForReal]

I wasn't asking if it was legal to build an UC I was asking if it was legal for an entire town to only be an UC. If box towns are illegal, I would think that towns that are ONLY an UC would also be illegal.

No such rules exists, not sure we need to have one. How do other people feel about this?

 

[JacobBurkey]

No such rules exists, not sure we need to have one. How do other people feel about this?

I mean if it was literally just like plain terrain and they just built stuff under I don't think that should be allowed...but obviously it shouldn't matter if they have something above ground.

 

[werwew19]

No such rules exists, not sure we need to have one. How do other people feel about this?

I don't like the idea at all. It's something that should be regulated for a plethora of reasons. There'd be no point to prohibit box towns if you wont prohibit underground boxes

 

[RegularHumanMode]

No such rules exists, not sure we need to have one. How do other people feel about this?

Really I don't care if they have an underground town. They should at the very least take the Erebor approach though. An 'impenetrable' fortress with all town related things completely underground and unreachable, but an aesthetically pleasing entrance that shows the town's interest in making the server look decent.

Or if there is no interest in making it a rule, perhaps just a contest for nicest looking towns? People will put at least some effort into their town's appearance that way.

 

[Junarcel]

Most of my town is underground, but I try to make make the parts above ground look as good as possible. I agree with @Dafefman , they should do it like erebor and not just make a couple cobble boxes n shit above ground. I understand that people want to make sure their stuff is safe.. but please put some effort in your builds, like damn..

 

[j2gay]

As someone who has built multiple aesthetically pleasing towns on several different servers including HC, I can tell you that building something nice on any server takes a massive amount of time and effort. However, the amount of time and effort required o to do so on HC is considerably more than on any other server I have played. This is mainly owing to the camping/gang rape style of PVP found on this server. As the population has dwindled this issue has been exacerbated, as fewer targets has meant longer and more frequent camping sessions for those attempting to build.

Furthermore the economic structure of the server leaves very little need for towns to trade with each other. This makes building a beautiful city above ground all risk and no benefit. The only people who still build them are those who can find pleasure in overcoming the challenge of building something beautiful in spite of the constant harrasment.

Still even if someone were to build something nice up top, they would be stupid to leave their valuables exposed. Again all risk no benefit.

What this thread comes down to is the same conversation we have been repeating since I joined HC three and a half years ago and was probably going on before I Got here.

Different players enjoy different aspects of the game. Some people want to go around ganking, murdering, and plundering. They find it enjoyable to harass other players. If that is what floats your boat fine, do it.But stop asking people to play the victim for you. You don't want towns built above ground so the server looks pretty. You want towns above ground because it provides a higher probability for victims and loot. Ask yourself this: What is in it for them?

You can't force people to play in a way that is enjoyable for you at their own expense. They simply won't log on. You have to give them some enticement.

There are a few that enjoy building on the surface inspite of its challenges. The very existance of this thread evinces that most do not. They would rather build a beautiful town underground for their own satisfaction.

If you want to change this, think of incentives to draw them to the surface. If you compel them out they will leave.

 

[xexorian]

I agree with J2gay in many aspects of his post.

If players want to build above ground, take care and read the following:
I will give you some friendly advice, stick to what you have limits for. Place (some of) your LWC's above ground so you can quickly deposit valuable blocks/tools if you see a group heading at you, always keep an eye on what's going on around you, have a friend watching for activity while you build, there's many ways to avoid the constant danger of PVP if you play intelligently. If you don't want to fight, but you want to lose the least viable amount of stuff if you get ganked then -- Only carry 1 tool on you, and 1-2 stacks of blocks at a time. (depending on how plentiful they are.) Only carry a little food, and just enough material to recall. Keep everything else in an LWC nearby, and move the LWC using droptransfer and directly move it without ever even having materials on you.

Granted, some of these tips require that you have a donor/supporter tier.. You can always get someone else to droptransfer for you (I used to do this for my friends.)

 

[RegularHumanMode]

I agree with J2gay in many aspects of his post.

If players want to build above ground, take care and read the following:
I will give you some friendly advice, stick to what you have limits for. Place (some of) your LWC's above ground so you can quickly deposit valuable blocks/tools if you see a group heading at you, always keep an eye on what's going on around you, have a friend watching for activity while you build, there's many ways to avoid the constant danger of PVP if you play intelligently. If you don't want to fight, but you want to lose the least viable amount of stuff if you get ganked then -- Only carry 1 tool on you, and 1-2 stacks of blocks at a time. (depending on how plentiful they are.) Only carry a little food, and just enough material to recall. Keep everything else in an LWC nearby, and move the LWC using droptransfer and directly move it without ever even having materials on you.

Granted, some of these tips require that you have a donor/supporter tier.. You can always get someone else to droptransfer for you (I used to do this for my friends.)

I agree with most of this, but I would just mention a couple things to you non-donating loners out there.

1. Instead of LWC's, make some well hidden chests. Under floor boards, in the ceiling, in the walls of your basement! Doesn't matter just so long as it looks like a natural element of your building.
2. Have no friends and no one to watch your back? Build in a secluded location! Find a mountain or island which is not easily accessed and go to town! If someone is in fact approaching you will have plenty of time to react unless you are utterly oblivious.
3. As for quick storage to save valuables there is not much else other than LWC's. You can always take the "Coward's Way Out" and surround yourself in cobble or dirt. As they break it down build it up again. Meanwhile your warmup to teleport to spawn will be ticking away!

 

[xexorian]

I agree with most of this, but I would just mention a couple things to you non-donating loners out there.

1. Instead of LWC's, make some well hidden chests. Under floor boards, in the ceiling, in the walls of your basement! Doesn't matter just so long as it looks like a natural element of your building.
2. Have no friends and no one to watch your back? Build in a secluded location! Find a mountain or island which is not easily accessed and go to town! If someone is in fact approaching you will have plenty of time to react unless you are utterly oblivious.
3. As for quick storage to save valuables there is not much else other than LWC's. You can always take the "Coward's Way Out" and surround yourself in cobble or dirt. As they break it down build it up again. Meanwhile your warmup to teleport to spawn will be ticking away!

Even non-donors (ie: regular players) get ample LWC limits with the new changes to relics come about. And really, that only applies to hoarders.

 

[Celvick]

You guys really went to town on my simple question. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Trazil]

Why do all of the threads on here go back to PVE vs. PVP...

Anyway, I agree that towns should be required to put at the very least a bit of effort for a nice looking surface. This isn't about PVP vs PVE and wanting every town raid able, but to make towns actually look half decent so how about we keep it on track

I remember past maps where almost my entire town was below ground, but we still tried making the surface look nice (except Helios, because we then just moved into a noble plot). To answer your questions on "what's in it for them?" They get a nice, and appealing town that everyone can see instead of being hidden underground. You are also given much more space that in some cases is much easier to work with.

 

[j2gay]

Why do all of the threads on here go back to PVE vs. PVP...

Anyway, I agree that towns should be required to put at the very least a bit of effort for a nice looking surface. This isn't about PVP vs PVE and wanting every town raid able, but to make towns actually look half decent so how about we keep it on track

I remember past maps where almost my entire town was below ground, but we still tried making the surface look nice (except Helios, because we then just moved into a noble plot). To answer your questions on "what's in it for them?" They get a nice, and appealing town that everyone can see instead of being hidden underground. You are also given much more space that in some cases is much easier to work with.

I am not trying to make it about PvE vs PvP. Simply outlining that for most the risks of building on the surface outweigh the benefits.
If a town is hidden under ground this does not look bad. It doesn't add beauty but it doesn't detract either. It is neutral aesthetically.
Players can have a nice and appealing town without anyone else seeing it. If they are building for them them and them alone they may not give a damn if anyone else sees it.
It comes down to trying to force people to play a certain way vs giving them incentives to play the way you want.
If you want to see beautiful towns build on the surface there are two ways to go about it. Force towns to be built on the surface, or entice people to build them on the surface.
One way brings people together, and will result in more towns being built with a higher percentage of those looking good. The other drives them apart, and drives many away fron the server entirely, resulting in fewer towns beautiful or otherwise.

 

[Trazil]

I am not trying to make it about PvE vs PvP. Simply outlining that for most the risks of building on the surface outweigh the benefits.
If a town is hidden under ground this does not look bad. It doesn't add beauty but it doesn't detract either. It is neutral aesthetically.
Players can have a nice and appealing town without anyone else seeing it. If they are building for them them and them alone they may not give a damn if anyone else sees it.
It comes down to trying to force people to play a certain way vs giving them incentives to play the way you want.
If you want to see beautiful towns build on the surface there are two ways to go about it. Force towns to be built on the surface, or entice people to build them on the surface.
One way brings people together, and will result in more towns being built with a higher percentage of those looking good. The other drives them apart, and drives many away fron the server entirely, resulting in fewer towns beautiful or otherwise.

Well... It's not really about forcing players into anything other than making it aesthically pleasing. There are already other rules in place that function fairly similar. Players can have a town that doesn't look nice, but there are many problems that build from that. Just look at almost any factions server, does random little cobble huts make you want to play the server, or do nice castles? Also, when players put themselves out there just a bit they get INVOLVED with the community, something that has been happening less and less.

On the other note, just making sure this doesn't end up in a little PVE vs. PVP thread as so many others have, not trying to be rude.

 

[RegularHumanMode]

I am not trying to make it about PvE vs PvP. Simply outlining that for most the risks of building on the surface outweigh the benefits.
If a town is hidden under ground this does not look bad. It doesn't add beauty but it doesn't detract either. It is neutral aesthetically.
Players can have a nice and appealing town without anyone else seeing it. If they are building for them them and them alone they may not give a damn if anyone else sees it.
It comes down to trying to force people to play a certain way vs giving them incentives to play the way you want.
If you want to see beautiful towns build on the surface there are two ways to go about it. Force towns to be built on the surface, or entice people to build them on the surface.
One way brings people together, and will result in more towns being built with a higher percentage of those looking good. The other drives them apart, and drives many away fron the server entirely, resulting in fewer towns beautiful or otherwise.

This goes back to my earlier suggestion (at least I think I suggested it) which is a competition among towns sponsored by the server in which the aesthetics are judged. In order for the maximum number of people to be involved there would be prizes for a relatively large number of towns (instead of 1-3 make it 1-10).

That's really as good as any incentive is going to get.

 

[j2gay]

This goes back to my earlier suggestion (at least I think I suggested it) which is a competition among towns sponsored by the server in which the aesthetics are judged. In order for the maximum number of people to be involved there would be prizes for a relatively large number of towns (instead of 1-3 make it 1-10).

That's really as good as any incentive is going to get.

This could help but I don't think it would be enough.

 

[RegularHumanMode]

This could help but I don't think it would be enough.

Yes, but we can never make all towns look good without forcing them to. This is as close as we can come.