Suggestion Monthly Check In -- why are players not staying?

[Maximillion_V_Midn]

The issue these days is that these behaviors have become too prevalent. When the very real possibility of PvP groups happening upon you causes you to strategize new ways to play and forces you to be constantly aware of your surroundings this adds a fun and interesting element to the game.

When the it becomes difficult for many players to be logged on for more than five minutes without being repeatedly stomped, chased, harassed, insulted, their crops destroyed, in many cases griefed (please don't anyone try to tell me this never happens because I experienced it first hand when I first joined) and just generally badgered by large groups of high level pvpers, it stops being interesting and starts becoming burdensome.

Very well-put. You just said it better, and in fewer words, than I ever could have.

My issue has definitely never been about "High Difficulty", or "PvP". On World of Warcraft, we defined "Griefing" as Level 60s who would come into newbie towns, and kill all of the mobs, preventing lower level players from leveling, as they were using the game in a way that wasn't intended by the developers. By WoW definitions, my problem with Herocraft are the "Griefers" who make it impossible to level, because they're too busy flaunting the levels they went on a 7-Up Bender for TWO DAYS to get, not by protecting newbies from unpleasant elements, but by being unpleasant elements. On WoW, it's like being a level 3 character, and you can't do anything, because there is a group of level 60 Undead Rogues camping the Starting Area, running away when higher levels come around, then sneaking back once our Backup leaves again.

Here are some "community elements" I speak of, prime examples from our Discord chat.

nubby
that what
ur gay??
xdsxdxdxdxdx lamaoaoamaoa

nubby
XD
u gay or what

nubby
hang urself son

nubby
literally u fucking LOW IQ ANIMAL DOG
FUCKING DIE
UR A SHIT DOG SON

nubby
stfukiddo

nubby
literally like wtf are u even talking to
i will hack you

I get that "funny" is subjective, but are we okay with keeping players who flaunt this "humor" around in Chat? We have minors who log into this chat, and the first thing they see is people chatting like drunk and disconcertingly candid Sex Offenders at some dingy beer dive, boasting about their last good 'conquest'.. You cannot tell me that these personalities, and these attitudes, don't play a part in the way the same people abuse, torture and torment Newbies.

@Newb-Campers: Worry less about tormenting, harassing and making little kids cry, and making excuses for it....and worry more about how to be a respectable human being.

Max- You need to stop making this about you and your experience and start realizing that this is a business. No business can afford to turn away customers. Right now the server is being hurt by toxic behaviors driving players away. That needs to stop. However whatever remedy is developed to combat this needs to be built in such a way that it does not drive away the current player base. It will take both sides to make the server interesting.

What do you suggest, then? You can't reform serial rapists by giving them a spool of yarn to play with, no more than making flashy new features is going to correct the horrid behavior we've been seeing from these players. The only in-game feature that I think would separate these toxic people from the legitimately decent people, is having a separate PvE server, or setting it up so people below a certain level, without a town, are immune to PvP until they can level and gain enough resources to protect themselves.

When ordinarily non-toxic players like myself go apeshit, the Mods tell us to "Shush", and "you're bordering on toxic". The Toxic players (and maybe the Mods have just grown accustomed to them behaving that way) are going on (like nubby did in the Discord chat I quoted above), it's just brushed off as "playful sarcasm".

Google "making kids cry on Minecraft", and that is what we're up against: people ages 17-32, who go around trying to make kids cry. If they manage to find some distressed adult who makes an 'easy' target, all the better, in their eyes.

 

[pure_autism]

The only in-game feature that I think would separate these toxic people from the legitimately decent people, is having a separate PvE server, or setting it up so people below a certain level, without a town, are immune to PvP until they can level and gain enough resources to protect themselves.

Both of these have been tried in the past, and both have failed horribly. The PvE server split an already small community and killed PvP just because some people didn't want to have to deal with a big part of the game, and making new players invincible to PvP resulted in alts that could steal things from towns while being unkillable.

 

[Kainzo]

Bump!

 

[Super593]

Look I'll be pretty blunt for a sec since LITERALLY everything I'd want to suggest has been said.

I got camped and ganked just like most noobs who joined did. Does everyone forget its a HARDCORE server? I learned to sneak around and level while avoiding the high levels, people who just want an easy experience and wont do anything end up running to some common place, dieing and quitting soon after.

Most people who join the server even when they arent camped and ganked I just see them vanish. Perhaps we could use more things to do to be honest. It's not hard to get bored just getting your way to max level alone really. Events are barely run these days too, and personally I think staff could benefit from seeing some new faces.

I do think we need to spread our server out more and advertise it more. Herocraft doesn't have the same presence it did before when it was literally on the first page of MC forums for example.

 

[LordZelkova]

Look I'll be pretty blunt for a sec since LITERALLY everything I'd want to suggest has been said.

I got camped and ganked just like most noobs who joined did. Does everyone forget its a HARDCORE server? I learned to sneak around and level while avoiding the high levels, people who just want an easy experience and wont do anything end up running to some common place, dieing and quitting soon after.

Most people who join the server even when they arent camped and ganked I just see them vanish. Perhaps we could use more things to do to be honest. It's not hard to get bored just getting your way to max level alone really. Events are barely run these days too, and personally I think staff could benefit from seeing some new faces.

I do think we need to spread our server out more and advertise it more. Herocraft doesn't have the same presence it did before when it was literally on the first page of MC forums for example.

I tried bringing back events, but they are a lot of work to put together.

Tournaments are still the easiest thing to run, but half the time it's the same few people/teams winning, and sign ups just start dropping.

I'd love to have monthly content, but I cannot output them solo.

 

[Wild_Porygon]

I tried bringing back events, but they are a lot of work to put together.

Tournaments are still the easiest thing to run, but half the time it's the same few people/teams winning, and sign ups just start dropping.

I'd love to have monthly content, but I cannot output them solo.

do randomized teams

 

[LordZelkova]

do randomized teams

We've tried things like this and we end up complaints, complications, or both.

People aren't always the most cooperative or understanding.

 

[PewPewPewLasers]

Look I'll be pretty blunt for a sec since LITERALLY everything I'd want to suggest has been said.

I got camped and ganked just like most noobs who joined did. Does everyone forget its a HARDCORE server? I learned to sneak around and level while avoiding the high levels, people who just want an easy experience and wont do anything end up running to some common place, dieing and quitting soon after.

Most people who join the server even when they arent camped and ganked I just see them vanish. Perhaps we could use more things to do to be honest. It's not hard to get bored just getting your way to max level alone really. Events are barely run these days too, and personally I think staff could benefit from seeing some new faces.

I do think we need to spread our server out more and advertise it more. Herocraft doesn't have the same presence it did before when it was literally on the first page of MC forums for example.

absolutely love this all, I think this is valuable input

 

[Jrr_]

I tried bringing back events, but they are a lot of work to put together.

Tournaments are still the easiest thing to run, but half the time it's the same few people/teams winning, and sign ups just start dropping.

I'd love to have monthly content, but I cannot output them solo.

I'd like to see events that don't need organizing, just when a boost comes on start a DOD at spawn.

Kainzo also said when doing those pigman events with special drops were easy to do himself as they were a simple config change, they would be cool to see every couple of months.

 

[j2gay]

High levels / Veterans are camping newbies off the server.
I have two suggestions to combat this
1. Institute a police force/guard unit. You could start by conscripting the guides and proctors as the guard could fill these roles as well.
Guards would be a server staff playable class organized in a military like heirarchy. I would suggest Jr. Guard as an into/trial period class. Guard would be the rank of most of the unit. There would be a few senior guards to lead unit based combat.
A junior guard would be capable, if a skilled pvper, of soloing two max level tier 2 players comfortably, a guard three and a senior guard 4.
Members of the guard would be forbidden from initiating PvP except in response to campers, noob slayers, and bullies.
Penalty for abusing guard powers/responsibilities would be expulsion from the guard and temp ban(length tbd)

Some may be Leary about the idea of introducing an OP staff class for fear of abuse however I think the benefits will far outweigh the risks.
First the mere existence of the guard should reduce the duration of camping sessions in most cases. Small groups of noob campers (say 5 or Less) would be forced to move on from any one spot quickly for fear of provoking a response from the guard, introducing a new and potentially fun/interesting dynamic to alleviate some of the proclaimed boredom.
Secondly large groups of pvpers might intentionally provoke the guard, creating the potential for some epic mass PvP battles which should be fun for both members of the guard and those who provoke them
A third potential benefit is that towns that currently hide from PvP because they get creamed might be more willing to engage in battle if they believe help may come if the fight goes incredibly badly or devolves into a bullying session. Coincidentally this would also likely result in less bitching and whining in the chat, another problem you are trying to address.
There are other potential benefits as well but I won't get into all of them now for risk of rambling on. What I will say is that this system if done properly, and I would be glad to assist in seeing it done properly, offers benefit to most at the expense of few or none. The only people who might be angered by such a system are those who like to dish it out but can't take it, otherwise known as bullies, who you probably don't want constituting a large portion of the player base any way.

2. Bring back the whitelist. Why?
It creates a perception of exclusivity

It forces new players to learn about the server and it's mechanics before playing. Cutting out part of the learning curve and eliminating culture shock

The whitelist creates excitement and anticipation. While waiting to be accepted players learn about the server and begin planning what class they will play. They become invested in the server and will be more likely to stick out a few hard times. Will you reduce slightly the number of new players joining? Yes. However the number of new players who stick around will be higher as they will have already invested a good deal of time and energy.

New players are unable to level without being killed.
See suggestion 1 above. An additional role for the guard could be to lead leveling parties of new players, keeping them safe and creating a fun and rewarding experience for all involved. This would also increase player interaction/interdependence and contribute to a sense of community.

New players don't understand the systems & The systems are too complex
See suggestion 2 above

There is little high-end past max level
See suggestion 1 above. Giving veteran players new purpose will help keep them on the server. While a guard barracks at spawn would be a neat guards who earn a name for being exceptional could be recruited by towns, perhaps even receiving free housing and a salary. This could create competition between guards to be the best and competition between towns to attract guards and with them prestige another value added interest/dynamic.

Create an actual economy through meaningful crafting restrictions. This would require some class revamping to work properly. Here is how it could work:
Reinstitute lost soul with some added combat potency and a more restrictive crafting abilities
Upon mastering lost soul players can enter a one profession, combat or crafting. The current professions could be divided into two tiers, the combat classes could stay as is but made into professions. Upon mastering a tier two profession, combat or crafting, a player can coose another profession combat or crafting. This would increase time to mastery and give players a reason to keep logging in. Also it would give the crafting professions an actual purpose, making chest shops viable and creating another reason to login.

Chat is Toxic and deters people from Role Play or joining into conversations
Mute occ by default for new players so you have to join it to see it.
Much swifter and stronger enforcement of existing chat rules is needed in all chats

There's too much inflation with little need to actually spend coins.
An admin shop can help regulate an economy and set a basic price structure. It cannot fight inflation. There are two things needed to fight inflation:
1. Bring back the gold standard. Souls can stay at a substantial value reduction but the best way to keep the value of currency high is to base it on a finite commodity. Additional items could also be used such as diamond or iron but gold or emerald, having little actual use are the best candidates.
2. Create an actual economy as I suggested above. Currently on HC there is little need for money aside from towns, personal protections, and less. The only market trading that takes place is for convenience/laziness or preference I.e. purchase of luxury items that are nice to have but not necessary to the game. Whether irl or in an RPG an economy can only flourish when it is, if not necessary then highly favored, for individuals to trade the produce of their labour to others for the produce of another's labour(or its equivalent money price) in order to supply themselves with the necessities of life. Only when one individual either cannot produce certain necessary commodities, or others can produce them so much cheaper that it would be unwise to produce them at home, do economies grow and thrive. A strong economy raises prices and lowers inflation.

There's no reason to log in every day.
I won't harp on the need for an economy anymore except to say that a thriving chest shop is enough to give make many players login everyday. Also creating interdependence among players creates a feeling of responsibility to be present. If no one is counting on you why bother showing up.
All of these suggestions could be implemented with little or no modifications to the existing plugins mechanics.

If you have an interest in applying any of these suggestions and would like additional information on how they could work or how to set them up let me know. I have a pretty good working knowledge of the heroes plugin as well as most of the other plugins you are running.

IHC is billed as an RPG server. However right now it is more of a log in and do your own thing server, which can get quite boring and contribute to many of the issues you are having. Add some epic aspects so that everyone has a role an feels the need to fill it.

I think this post is still very relevant. People need goals and.objectives to stay committed to a game. Something as simple as their chest shop being out of diamond picks is enough to get them to keep logging in. Also eliminate the market, and the Trade district and make players travel to chest shops at outposts set up by towns(you are still using towny yes?) Make it difficult for a town to raise money without a merchant base.

 

[j2gay]

Also whatever the currency is going to be (I still think finite commodities like gold or emerald work best) rather than have people exchange it to the admin shop directly max level merchants should be given a command that converts it to to the digital coin that drives the economy and players would sell to merchants.

 

[LordZelkova]

I'd like to see events that don't need organizing, just when a boost comes on start a DOD at spawn.

Kainzo also said when doing those pigman events with special drops were easy to do himself as they were a simple config change, they would be cool to see every couple of months.

I've been told DoD aren't a thing anymore, at least not like they were. Trust me, I'd love to just drop 1000 skeletons in spawn and watch the carnage as people try to survive.

 

[Super593]

Honestly I think staff could benefit from some fresh faces too.

I'd love to attempt to help with events myself, and I think it'd be really good if we tried seeing if anyone besides isaac who has applied for several positions already wants to be involved.

If more people from the community attempt to help out given I've noticed a large amount of staff are either inactive, busy, or preoccupied with their current role then I definitely think we could achieve something here especially.

The main problem has not only been with losing players, notice how many people we've "lost" on staff also. I've been here for atleast 4 maps and it's certainly noticeably right now. When it comes to events as well with what JRR has said, I definently agree. I even went out of my way before to try to organize small events such as when I gave out small prizes at spawn to whoever answered a few riddles correctly. The new people as well liked it. If we try taking small scale events like that and making a bunch of them, then it becomes less harder for staff and even volunteer players of the community to possibly manage them. What JRR said as well is a good example.

I've also noticed a large reduction in double exp times and that honestly I think has impacted gaining people. A long time ago I recall a good amount of double exp weekends occurring and traffic certainly spiked during those times. Now from what I've seen boosted exp holidays or weekends are just a 25% boost. Readding double exp weekends would certainly A)Take away from the grind B)Help drag new players in and possibly make them want to stay and play around int hat time. When I was a simple noob I knew other noobs who ended up staying for a while that were dragged in off this.

Tl Dr:Try to get some fresh faces on staff, possibly try to get something done about the events as well.

 

[JacobBurkey]

I'm not saying you staff don't understand this idea,

but as mentioned by multiple vets over the years as the numbers dropped people are just getting older and moving on with their lives

obviously this doesnt answer the question to new players

vets who left: core community, pvpers, fun of the server

when they leave, there is no pvp, no fun, nobody to take in new players. years ago new players obviously weren't good, but back then towns cared about numbers and would always take in noobs and train them and then there would be even more pvp, rivalries, and fun

the game just isn't the same, nobody has the same attitude or mind set that everyone used to have. new players weren't dumbasses like they are now, which makes it harder for the server to function

i have no advice on how to get people to join or stay so yeah bye

 

[RegularHumanMode]

I'm not saying you staff don't understand this idea,

but as mentioned by multiple vets over the years as the numbers dropped people are just getting older and moving on with their lives

obviously this doesnt answer the question to new players

vets who left: core community, pvpers, fun of the server

when they leave, there is no pvp, no fun, nobody to take in new players. years ago new players obviously weren't good, but back then towns cared about numbers and would always take in noobs and train them and then there would be even more pvp, rivalries, and fun

the game just isn't the same, nobody has the same attitude or mind set that everyone used to have. new players weren't dumbasses like they are now, which makes it harder for the server to function

i have no advice on how to get people to join or stay so yeah bye

I definitely don't disagree with you. The average age of MC players is just getting lower. They're impatient and don't understand extremely basic things. That's how little kids raised by the internet are.

Basically, to cater to the youths, have instant gratification, lots of different, small things to do, and make it easier to get protections other than towns.

Only issue is that that would not be the server I'd want to be on, and I'm guessing not the server that you'd want to run.

 

[j2gay]

I definitely don't disagree with you. The average age of MC players is just getting lower. They're impatient and don't understand extremely basic things. That's how little kids raised by the internet are.

Basically, to cater to the youths, have instant gratification, lots of different, small things to do, and make it easier to get protections other than towns.

Only issue is that that would not be the server I'd want to be on, and I'm guessing not the server that you'd want to run.

I disagree that the average age of Minecraft player is falling. There are plenty of older people still playing Minecraft, they just aren't playing on HC.

Also with no whitelist there is nothing keeping the 6-13 demographic, which has always been a significant part of the Minecraft player base, from logging in to Herocraft. This simply did not happen in the days of the whitelist.

There are many posts in this thread about events and tournaments. These can add value to a server and boost the morale of the community that you have, they will do nothing to bring in new players or even retain the players that you have. There are here and gone leaving nothing of lasting interest.

If you want people to stay, or to entice retired players to return you have stop stop thinking in terms of flashy shiny things and start thinking about ways to build lasting interest. Goals that only lead to more goals and an interconnectedness that creates a sense of duty to be present.

Most importantly, the server needs consistency. You have to decide what you want the server to look like and then make it look like that. Make small modifications and improvements, not massive overhauls. At least not as often as we've seen. It can't be like a box of chocolates. When we log on we need to know what we're gonna get.

 

[RegularHumanMode]

I disagree that the average age of Minecraft player is falling. There are plenty of older people still playing Minecraft, they just aren't playing on HC.

Also with no whitelist there is nothing keeping the 6-13 demographic, which has always been a significant part of the Minecraft player base, from logging in to Herocraft. This simply did not happen in the days of the whitelist.

There are many posts in this thread about events and tournaments. These can add value to a server and boost the morale of the community that you have, they will do nothing to bring in new players or even retain the players that you have. There are here and gone leaving nothing of lasting interest.

If you want people to stay, or to entice retired players to return you have stop stop thinking in terms of flashy shiny things and start thinking about ways to build lasting interest. Goals that only lead to more goals and an interconnectedness that creates a sense of duty to be present.

Most importantly, the server needs consistency. You have to decide what you want the server to look like and then make it look like that. Make small modifications and improvements, not massive overhauls. At least not as often as we've seen. It can't be like a box of chocolates. When we log on we need to know what we're gonna get.

If you disagree with my previous statement, how about this? Most older players are either leaving or have settled down in their servers/communities, and most incoming players to MC are younger. This means most traffic we get is from younger members. While we still do get some quality members, most are just youths.

I'm not sure about Whitelist. It adds extra work to staff who already have enough on their plate and also discourages fly-by visits that could lead to actual membership. Sure you'll be keeping out the youths, but what then? How would you get quality members to the server? You need to be looking at a market that is still there, not one that's dying out.

 

[LordZelkova]

If you disagree with my previous statement, how about this? Most older players are either leaving or have settled down in their servers/communities, and most incoming players to MC are younger. This means most traffic we get is from younger members. While we still do get some quality members, most are just youths.

I'm not sure about Whitelist. It adds extra work to staff who already have enough on their plate and also discourages fly-by visits that could lead to actual membership. Sure you'll be keeping out the youths, but what then? How would you get quality members to the server? You need to be looking at a market that is still there, not one that's dying out.

Proctors were Whitelisters. That was their one job, and it worked fine.

We had No-Whitelist weekends, and I think even a Greylist at one point. Both of which kept the undesirables at bay, but let people try things out.

The issue I think is that people these days don't want to bother registering on a forum, and applying, and taking the time to commit. They wanna see what's there, play, and move on.

 

[Yavool]

I had a much better time with Herocraft when I could build, sell my wares and the wares of my townfolks in the market, and level up my class and profession. For me, it has deviated greatly from this over the past few maps.

1) Although the idea of dungeons was a nice one, it was implemented in a way that allowed the leveling process to be controlled by larger groups of pvpers, thus making it very difficult for solo adventurers or small groups to have a chance. I much preferred it when the mobs spawned all over the map, and were harder (and granted greater xp) the further from spawn they were. This allowed groups to build their town at the level of difficulty they wanted, and didn't concentrate the mobs into controllable-by-others areas.

2) As a PVE-centric player with a PVE-centric group of townies, we found our greatest enjoyment in safely being able to level and build, where the difficulties came from the mobs and occasional PVP raiders. When the walls to our town could be blown off by TNT during "wartime," this single-handedly turned my entire town off to playing Herocraft, and only I remain at this time as an infrequent HC player. What is the enjoyment in building a town with town protections when it could be easily broken into?

3) The pinnacle of the enjoyment our town had was when the PVE had its own world map. Despite it having extreme terrain that was difficult to navigate and a dead trade district, it still allowed us to build and create.

4) When villagers were taken out of the game, that was a major nerf to my personal enjoyment HC.

5) When the auction house was implemented, I loved it, and although it affected the trade district, it was a brilliant idea.

6) The random loot treasure hunt was a fun way to explore and have random PVP encounters.

7) The codex idea wasn't all that functional. Pay the 400c and change professions at will. It would bring back a money sink, which HC needs more of to combat inflation.

If I was to build a HC map from scratch, this is what it would look like for the most part:

• One non-customized single map, 7500x7500, expandable to 15,0000 over time, with all biomes represented numerous times on the map.
• Map will NOT BE DELETED for the next five years minimum, if ever again.
• The entire map would be PVP, except a decent-sized region around each graveyard, Herogate, and Spawn.
• Mobs would spawn all over the map as they do in vanilla HC (increased in darkness plus a smaller % during the light time); with their strength, xp, and rewards increasing out gradually from Spawn.
• Mob spawn rate would be very high at night.
• Mob farms that made players not be able to be hit would still not be allowed, but dark rooms and other ways to increase mob spawn rate would be allowed.
• Dungeons will be PVE only, instance-based (their own worlds), and of varying levels of difficulty.
• Animals would spawn as normal based on the biomes they regularly spawn on.
• Villagers would be brought back as close to vanilla as possible.
• Spell particles would be increased back to the olden days (firework effects).
• Strongholds would be included as part of the natural layout of the map.
• Both the auction house and the trade district would be implemented.
• Trade district prices would be inexpensive and monthly, not weekly.
• Trade chest costs would be about the same.
• Trade district would be either more hut-based, or more mall-style.
• Profession item limitations would stay mostly intact as they are.
• Lottery would be implemented, every 8 hours.
• LWC would be available.
• Individualized stats would be brought back, instead of being locked into a specific stat path.
• Arena would be brought back.
• Minigames are brought in, at least 6 to 12, such as in many of the more popular HC servers; I suggest games that are similar to World of Warcraft (capture the flag/battlegrounds/etc), but with a HC flair.
• A MOBA-style Summoner's Rift map would be implemented where 5v5 PVP nexus-killing would occur.
• PVP resources-for-holding-points would be implemented.
• Destruction of towns by external sources in any way would not be available (TNT, etc.)
• Town costs would be reasonable.
• Test server is always accessible, griefable, and set to be able to max classes in order to test and practice builds.

If the goal is for people to stay around for the long run, then HC needs to have things that stay enjoyable, engaging, and have importance that is worthy of maintaining a regular upkeep. Minigames is one way, allowing for large-scale building is another, having a vibrant trade system is another, and larger-scale PVP battles is another (which requires towns to be able to grow, thrive, and for larger towns to battle other larger towns for some sort of resource or purpose).

In the end, as a single player with a single opinion, I simply want to level my character by killing mobs without having to go to a PVP mafia hangout, mine as I choose, build as I choose, PVP if I wish, and enjoy using my profession to encourage a vibrant economy. I imaglne other players have other desires, but at the very core, I want as much of the vanilla Minecraft available to me as possible, with the uniqueness of Herocraft's classes and professions central to the purpose of the HC server.

-yav