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Suggestion Beguiler

Dsawemd

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Beguiler is the "trickster" class, and their main attack is PlagueBomb. The fact that the bomb is a sheep is sort of "tricky", but I would like to suggest a new mechanic to accompany it, which would allow the skill to fit better with the spec.

Level 55 Beguiler Skill:

FauxBomb (name whatever)
Launches a sheep that is identical in appearance to PlagueBomb, but deals zero damage.

Reagent: 1 Wool
Resource cost: 5 mana
Cooldown: 20 sec

I suggested a very small resource cost because the skill does not actually affect either you or your opponent. I suggested a cooldown that was twice as long as PlagueBomb because the beguiler's opponent should expect the majority of the sheep to be damaging, otherwise the FauxBomb is much less effective. I understand that specialization balance take many factors into account, and that lore/description is not the most influential of those factors.

TL: DR Beguiler's bread and butter should have the potential to "trick" opponents, to better fit it's spec description. Give them a pretend bomb to accompany their real one. This would be a new fun mechanic for Beguiler.
 

Kainzo

The Disposable Hero
Staff member
Founder
Adventure Team
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Location
The 7th Circle of Heaven
t
Beguiler is the "trickster" class, and their main attack is PlagueBomb. The fact that the bomb is a sheep is sort of "tricky", but I would like to suggest a new mechanic to accompany it, which would allow the skill to fit better with the spec.

Level 55 Beguiler Skill:

FauxBomb (name whatever)
Launches a sheep that is identical in appearance to PlagueBomb, but deals zero damage.

Reagent: 1 Wool
Resource cost: 5 mana
Cooldown: 20 sec

I suggested a very small resource cost because the skill does not actually affect either you or your opponent. I suggested a cooldown that was twice as long as PlagueBomb because the beguiler's opponent should expect the majority of the sheep to be damaging, otherwise the FauxBomb is much less effective. I understand that specialization balance take many factors into account, and that lore/description is not the most influential of those factors.

TL: DR Beguiler's bread and butter should have the potential to "trick" opponents, to better fit it's spec description. Give them a pretend bomb to accompany their real one. This would be a new fun mechanic for Beguiler.
This wouldnt be too hard to do but not sure if Beguiler needs any more skills at this point...
 

Vidal_B

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Location
Texas
I think if this is added, then it needs to announce that the caster is using Plaguebomb, instead of Fauxbomb. Otherwise, people will just know which one is the fake. (Or announce nothing)
 

Delfofthebla

Legacy Supporter 4
Retired Staff
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
United States
EDITED: Toned down the rage (only a little. :) )

we can probably chop dispel or purge.... ill add it to the to-do list.
If you're going to chop one, chop purge--it barely even works and functions in the exact same way that Dispel does. (Except Dispel actually works properly).

-----
Regarding FauxBomb, I really do not think it's a good idea to simply throw in this ability. First off, I do not agree that Beguiler is a "trickster" class. At the very least, it does not "function" as one. It is a CC class, plain and simple. The Beguiler's role is to take control of the situation by locking down or hindering enemies. A beguiler allows his team to focus specific targets, and prevent others from influencing the fight for a certain duration.

Beguile is the only ability that one could consider to be even remotely "trickster" oriented, and it's hardly a worthwhile ability. Due to the randomness of the teleportation, most beguilers do not even use this skill. It's too random and too risky. Quite frankly, it's just bad. And I'm glad it's bad--Beguilers are already one of the strongest classes in the server, even without it.

Plague bomb is the highest damaging skill in the game with the largest AOE of all of the skills. When I see a Plague bomb, I do everything in my fucking power to not take that damage. It could be bodyblocking the sheep so that my opponent can't hit it, it could be backflipping / jumping away, it could be counter-piggifying the Beguiler with your own, or even just running away as fast as you can. The point is, I don't want to be hit by it. It freakin hurts.

Plague bomb is strong. Too strong, and I've felt this for a really long time. I've stated once before in the suggestions forum that I think Plague Bomb should always damage the beguiler, even while in a party. For some reason, my suggestion never took hold, but whatever, it is what it is. (I also think it should have a longer cooldown, but I never actually made a post about that.) I finally just accepted Plague Bomb as just one of those abilities that will remain insanely powerful, despite it's obvious lack of balance. But what Dsawemd is suggesting is going to make it even more powerful than it already is.

This, "Faux Bomb" ability, will force players to waste their skills, their effort, their attention, and their time towards something that won't even deal damage to them. I agree that this is a great mechanic for the beguiler, but I really don't think that the balance is there for it. Naturally, it will be followed up by the real damage skill, to which most players will no longer have any tools left to counter the skill anymore. Beguiler already has an insane amount of control over the fight. With this ability, you will be forced to dance in the palm of their hands while they buy time for their real abilities to be used. Abilities that are so insanely powerful that I can't believe people don't cry about them on the forums on a daily basis.

---

Every single day I think about making a suggestion post to nerf Beguiler. However, there are a couple of things that make me decide not to waste the effort.

First off, most players on this server are just straight up bad at their classes. I find that most of them don't take the time to understand their abilities or how to use them--and thus, feel it is underpowered or worthless. They look at other classes and don't understand what their strengths or weaknesses are. They just know whether they died or lived--because that's all they can really see. They then pop up on the forums, and spout their views as if they were the end all be all of the game. Their ignorant posts and ignorant ratings cause anyone who views the post to be swayed towards the perspective of the masses.

Second, Kainzo does not play on his own server. Which is fine--he doesn't have to be a "player" to be an "admin". But because he does not actively participate in the PVP of the server, he too, has no idea how the meta actually functions. All he can do is look at the ratings to a post, skim everyone's responses, and then compares that to how he believes things "should be", and then make his judgement.

These two things combined make it hard to actually convey the actual pvp / balance situation of the server to him, and everyone else, and often leads to improper changes & hasty decisions.

Because of all this, I usually just skip it. I get tired of typing up all this bullshit just to have it glossed over. Yet, out of nowhere, this suggestion comes up with almost no details / reasoning behind it, and it is immediately green-flaged it without any regards to the actual balance of the game. So while yes, this skill is interesting and possibly even "cool", I find that it is a buff to a class that does not in any way need one. But everyone, including Kainzo, thought it would be fun addition to the game. So there it is and here it comes.

Awesome.
 

Dsawemd

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
-snip-
Awesome.
disclaimer: heh I made it look like your wall of text was in agreement, but it totally wasn't.

Sounds like you think that Beguiler needs to be less of a nuke class, and more of a Crowd Control class. The Fauxbomb idea IS crowd control, although it is not "forced crowd control" like Beguile (or Constrict, or IceArrow, or Blackjack procs) but instead allows for players to either obey the crowd control or disobey it and risk taking a nuke.

I think you touched upon some excellent points, particularily the bit about PB damaging the Beguiler. I agree that for balance's sake, melee activation (ie. not Fireball, not timer, not sheep fall damage) by anyone in the Beguiler's party including self melee activation SHOULD damage the caster (not his party however).

If the ability to 'trick people with their nuke' was implemented, you are absolutely correct in your statement that Beguiler would need an overall balance check. Any class that receives a change to its bread and butter skill needs an overall balance check. I personally put this suggestion on par with suggesting a 1.5x distance for Jump, or changing Ninja melee/Ranger arrow dmg by about 10%, or changing Pyro's Fire tick damage: It is a change that will require balancing of other attributes.

"It is a CC class, plain and simple. The Beguiler's role is to take control of the situation by locking down or hindering enemies. A beguiler allows his team to focus specific targets, and prevent others from influencing the fight for a certain duration." -Delf

"I AGREE." -Dsaw

edit: Delf, I did NOT ignore your post, and neither will others. Dont give up on the process just yet dude! <3
 

Diffuse

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
I didn't really read this much.
My thoughts somewhat:

-Sheep damaging beguiler is a problem due to lag making the "throw it up in the air and let it drop" type strategy fail miserably.

-Cooldown should be increased on plaguebomb and beguile.

-Beguiler is a class meant for tricks and derpy shit. This design is what should be allowing it to be a cc class though it has fallen a bit away from the whole "tricky" thing.

-Beguile is super useful is certain situations (mainly 2v1s) (yes beguiler is so derp it can 2v1)

-Wub

-Dodging the sheep, I feel, is almost never necessary as a melee class. In fact, I believe it to be a poor decision. Typically if they throw the sheep without using a piggify skill then that means that piggify or masspiggify are on cooldown. Intentionally dodging the sheep allows the beguiler to gain more distance and thus more time to get their piggify back up, thus enabling them to get another full combo off for free. I find that in a 1v1 as a melee class you only have 2 real options. The first being trying to just run them the fuck over and try to kill them as fast as possible praying that they are retarded enough not to understand their amazing options to prevent this (at least 75% of beguilers tend to be bad enough to allow this). The other option is to get them to waste masspiggify, reset the fight with food, then proceed with the first option. Playing a tactical game against a smart beguiler will almost never work because of the incredible options they have been given.

-Since I'm banned and I don't have any real games that my laptop can run/this school internet can handle, I think I'm going to make a massive thread depicting theoretical 1v1 scenarios as every caster spec vs every other spec and the best ways I believe to fight them as each caster spec. Should I do this/how do I make spoilers to make it not a massive piece of shit?

-Since I haven't actually commented on the thing the thread suggests: I'll say its a nice thought and would work out well for decent beguilers, but it feels totally unnecessary and could throw things a bit off if other things are not done first.

-Its past 9:40 PM here and I usually try to sleep from 6 pm - 3 am so I'm not thinking too clearly. I also have a headache. I also think I did well on my chem test today (despite not having gone to the lectures in like a month lmao) so :D

-ur all gey
 
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