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Suggestion Healer Buffs

Jmandudeguy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Let me begin by saying I do not think Cleric is "OP". Now that I have put a stop to the comments that would have ensued about the "OPness" of cleric I would like to speak on behalf of all of the OTHER healers on the server. Here is what I see right now in game with the healers: Cleric- Strong AoE heals with lots of uses in team fights, Mystic- Weaker cleric that can't out heal damage that classes take/ is mainly single target heals, Disciple- Great PvP oriented healer class that is now being discarded due to enchanting additions. It's mainly damage with single target spells and heals that needs lots of mana and stamina, Bloodmage- A class that has a small HP pool/ high HP cots with long CDs, and almost no use for teams in team fights as a support or AoE damage*. Now, what do I think is wrong/ good about this? I think cleric right now fits its intended role while Bloodmage and Mystic have little to no uses, and Disciple is now becoming useless due to armor buffs.
What I would do to fix this:
1) Buff Mystic heals/ add a heal that could possibly act as a weaker group heal.
2) Buff physical damage on ALL of Disciple's weapons and remove stamina cost on Chakra/ reduce it.
3) Bloodmage needs more HP/smaller HP costs, smaller CDs, and better single target heals or AoE heals that can heal itself and it's group if it is supposed to be more of a support class.

Why I think these classes need these changes:
1) Mystic is too weak at the moment, and is relatively always dismissed as a weaker cleric and therefore not used in PVP tournaments, or chosen as a class to PvP in groups with.
2) Disciple has become useless against people with good armor reducing it's effectiveness against EVERY class, so in turn it needs a physical damage buff. The stamina use on Disciple is annoying enough and even though you get meditate, it's only up every 8 min and in between that time you blow through stamina especially when using chakra your best/ most useful skill.
3) Bloodmages have to deal with too high of CDs hurting them while they are waiting for their spells, and when they use their spells when they are low they have to make decisions on what spell to use based on remaining HP hurting the PvP of the class. When you have to decide on whether or not to use a spell because you use such absurd HP cost it really hurts the class overall and is reflected by the amount of people who play the class. In addition they have a smaller amount of heals when compared to other healers and because of that it hurts this class especially when it uses it's HP costing spells. That is why they need a better heal. However they also need a better heal for their group to both help themselves in battle while helping others, thus improving their use as a support and helping it use its spells.
Thanks for reading this lengthy discussion of healers. Hope to see some discussion in the comments from both sides :).
---Jmandudeguy

*Not I do not necessarily think that BM needs an AoE damaging skill, I am just stating that it is pretty much god at 1v1s but bad in Team fights or fights when there are multiple foes.
 

Solidze

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
Agreed, now I apologize this is a raw conversation with the ONLY 2 other MAIN Mystics maxed level on the server that I know of. There will be grammar issues, and its a wall of text.

Hey man, seems like we are the only two mystics around ha. About to hit 60 (60 for days) today (been pvping my way up), and I was going to suggest a few things but wanted to know how you felt about it. Before I do, I would like to say, looking through all of the paths, there are 2 tanks in the warrior tree, but however there is only "1" actual healer in the healing path. You've seen my Naturalist suggestion thread, you seemed to like some of the abilities, and I would love to see Mystics be that "2nd" healer spotlight in the tree. I don't want to be "forced" to play a Cleric

I am currently running Mystic as a healer/support, playing it like I would that Naturalist but been running into these problems.

-Low Survival compared to Clerics (Obvious but Ill explain the thought process about this later in this thread).
-Decent heals, but low output compared to Cleric. Most of the time I have to pick and choose who lives and who dies in fights.

I've been told from multiple people that Kainzo wants the spotlight in healing to go to a Cleric, and for the most part I agree, but it doesn't mean other classes shouldn't have a chance to "almost" compete with Clerics in healing. Clerics are good in my eyes for 4 things, group invuln, self invuln, strong healing, and armor choices. Which brings me to my next point.

Mystics, I think they class has great potential and I have been doing my best to keep my groups alive during fights. For the most part I have been doing pretty successful in open fields and mass kiting (very difficult to keep people up), however I will never be a pick in tournaments or other group plays (outside the current Akatsuki group Ez, Rumble, and I run). I want to see 2 things changed about a Mystic; (I'll even be happy to see 1 change)

-Add another chainmail armor option. Preferably legs or chest (or both), this will increase our survival to aid our allies due to having no invuln as a easy mode option to avoid damage, kiting only goes so far.
-Add another healing spell, or buff the current ones. Preferably another group heal, but this time direct instead of a low group heal over time. Maybe this spell from my Naturalist thread?


55: Nature's Grace (15mp) (12 sec CD)

Party members within 15 blocks of you are healed for 100HP.

*Another thing that could be looked into instead of a new spell or spells, buff the current spells. Rejuvenate shouldn't have a 15 second CD, lower it to 1 or 5. It has a high mana cost so spamming it constantly on group mates can run you out of mana quickly, so it wouldn't hurt (though you may want to reduce mana cost from 23 down to 18-20. With this buff HealingBloom by a few, from 18 to 22-24 hp. This MAY compensate for the lack of group healing.*

Possibilities:

-Maybe increase the range on spells instead of adding a new armor option?
-Maybe a Dispel?
-Maybe a Mana rejuvenation spell? (remove replenish)
-Maybe a aura buff?


Licksterboy-
"Hey guys, mystic is one of my favorite classes and I am glad you brought this subject up. In my opinion, a mystic will out heal a cleric because of group heal's cool down nerf and mystic's replenish.
With that being said, I am not sure if adding another heal skill would be a good idea. (If one was added, it should be small like you said) What if a mana rejuvenation skill was added?
Furthermore, I am highly against the skill enabling no range for mystic, this will cause many problems and we'll end up back when healing bloom was horribly bugged. (Has that been fixed)
Kainzo is right when he said cleric will be the dominant healer class, but think about all the bonuses that mystic gets. Gills, camouflage, replenish, invigorate and even port! Of course I think you mainly want to address the support side of the class but boy, it's amazing to have healing bloom and rejuvenate casted on you. :p
Also, when it comes to armor, I am a bit undecided. At first I even questioned the chain helmet since mystics should be using armor from nature but then I realized that the chain was made from iron which is found in earth... But, to be honest I think it's fine the way it is. Maybe the chain helmet could be swapped out for another piece of chain?
In conclusion, mystics should probably get one more small support skill to come closer to cleric's level. Unfortunately, other than the additional mana rejuvenation skill, I can't think of anything, I'll probably have more ideas in the morning.
Once again, I'm glad this topic has been brought up, thanks. :)"
First of all, thanks for replying. I really appreciate the feedback and I can agree with you on some points.

"Kainzo is right when he said cleric will be the dominant healer class, but think about all the bonuses that mystic gets. Gills, camouflage, replenish, invigorate and even port! "

Sure these are great and fun spells, but the reality is....most won't even help with healing and supporting within combat.

"Of course I think you mainly want to address the support side of the class but boy, it's amazing to have healing bloom and rejuvenate casted on you. :p"

Yes indeed it is, but even with both stacked on someone, if they are receiving damage, the healing will not out heal the total amount of damage receiving because of it not being a direct heal. Now my question for the balance team, are you guys looking at wild bloom and rejuvenate being an ACTUAL heal? I see it as a damage negating ability, example: Frank has wild bloom and rejuvenate on him, Frank over 3 seconds was healed for 54, but over that 3 seconds Frank took 225 damage (which can happen in game). So overall Frank took 171 damage due to the rejuvenating heals. Also you can only choose 1 person to have rejuvenate every 15 seconds.

With bandage and chant sure this is nice to help top up, but I would like to see another "direct" heal but toward the group, and in a small amount. This reason being is with the math above, wild bloom is great but its 18 every 2 seconds (180 total after 20sec). If you entire party is taking 100+ damage every 2-3 seconds, you have to pick and choose who you want to live or die at this point, no invuln to save the day. With a Cleric, you hit group heal, you INSTANTLY heal all that damage for a total of 250 and the CD difference from HealingBloom and Group heal is 5 seconds apart, which still the group healing output from a Cleric will be best, they also have invulns to fall back on.

Another thing to remember is that Clerics have group invuln, and we don't, so with this I strongly want to approve another group heal for Mystic. And ANOTHER thing to remember is that the range on our spells are the same, however Mystics are a lot more squishy than a Cleric, so when we want to go in a heal, we put our self in a more dangerous situation than a Cleric.

Overall its hard to look at how much a Cleric gets compared to other healer classes, the survival, the utility, the healing output. They got it all, and you might say "reroll to cleric" however, I like the concept of a Mystic, I just want to see it tweeked a bit to somewhat compete on a Clerics level. I don't see many Mystics around, and there must be a reason for that, the balance team and devs need to address this.

Licksterboy-

"On a happier note, I fully understand your reasoning and you have very good points.
After reading your response, I do agree, mystics are much squishier than clerics, and although HoT skills are amazing, they aren't enough all the time.

EDIT: I just wanted to let you know, you are not alone. For the up coming tournament my town came to me begging for me to go cleric, I automatically thought, "What about mystic? :D" but I already knew what their answer would be. :p"

I can go on and on, but I ended the conversation here because of RL issues popping up (Fiancee's grandma dying).
 

Diffuse

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Rambling about healers and making jokes about clerics not being OP
I don't think I'll bother mentioning mystic or bloodmage as I have little experience with both, but to say that cleric is not too strong and that disciple is too weak is ridiculous.

I am going to assume people in this community realize that OP means over powered, not "holy shit its so gamebreakingly powerful that it has to be fixed right a fucking way or the game will be ruined!"

Clerics have the best of all worlds. They have the best armor, the best self defense mechanisms, the best healing, and the second best melee damage. They have low mana costs, high group utility and they can pretend to be unspecced warriors by using iron swords thus making them seem less threatening. Something needs to be nerfed, but to prevent me from writing a wall of text I will let the balance team do something about it (lol balance team doing something). Clerics are and have always been OP to a certain degree.

Unless armor is suddenly blocking casting damage to the degree where even wizards can't do damage, disciples are still fine and possibly too powerful. They do incredibly high damage with just spells while having the strongest heal. Chakra needs the costs because it is insanely powerful. It limits the stuff you can do with the stamina, but if you are running out of stamina you really need to relearn the class and realize that you only need chakra, pray, forcepush and smite to win almost every fight (forcepush semi optional). Every other skill they have is situational and thus should not be being used so much as to cause a massive strain on your resources.
 

LightningCape

Holy Shit!
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Location
Republic City, Earth Kingdom
At the moment Bloodmage is very hard to use due to lots of factors one of which being it cant heal at low health.
Health-
That being said I still think it is a very balanced class because of this but also very fragile. I don't think Bloodmages' health is an issue considering we have the 2nd highest health out off all healers.
CDs-
It's my opinion that Bloodmage CDs are fine the way they are and if the CDs were lowered the class would become unbalanced. Most Bloodmage skills rang from 5-20sec CD which are not high in the slightest, but at the same time at least our damage-CD ratio is better than necro.
AoE-
An AoE attacks that drains HP from the target to the Bloodmage's party group would be a great addition to Bloodmages. If that isn't possible then I have some ideas to solve the Bloodmage health issue without making too strong:
-Allow bandage to be used in combat
Or
-Have BoilBlood steal a very small amount of HP
Or
-Un-nerf Chant(Might be too much)

Maybe to counter balance those:
-Lower SoulLeech range(Even I must admit it's high)
-Increase DrainSoul to 10secs (Currently 8secs)

In listing all these things I realize that it's worse than I though. Probably why there are only 2-3 Bloodmages on at a time.

Licksterboy I now kinda regret disagreeing with you and Noname on this:
http://www.herocraftonline.com/main/threads/bloodmage-ideas.30044/#post-267022
I can say that I now agree with some of the suggestions on it. :cool:
 

Dsawemd

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
This thread is trying to accomplish waaaay too much, I predict better community and staff interaction if you took the time to create multiple threads for your ideas.
edit2: this IS a solid starting place for this discussion.
Edit: also, jake murdered it with his wall of convo's <3

I agree and disagree with parts of this thread.
The message I got from your comments: Cleric is nearly balanced, but still outstrips other healing classes in balance, while BM and Mystic are weaker, and underplayed as a result (I disagree with your analysis of Disciple. In it's current implementation it is a very competitive spec).
 

Solidze

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
This thread is trying to accomplish waaaay too much, I predict better community and staff interaction if you took the time to create multiple threads for your ideas.
edit: also, jake murdered it with his wall of convo's <3

I agree and disagree with parts of this thread.
The message I got from your comments: Cleric is nearly balanced, but still outstrips other healing classes in balance, while BM and Mystic are weaker, and underplayed as a result (I disagree with your analysis of Disciple. In it's current implementation it is a very competitive spec).

The ideas could have been split through multiple threads, however this tends to spam the forums....I experienced that first hand. Mashing it all into one thread can be beneficial to get multiple messages across without the worry of losing one of multiple threads.

Sorry for the wall of text, but if you would have read it...it is constructive.
 

Jmandudeguy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
This thread is trying to accomplish waaaay too much, I predict better community and staff interaction if you took the time to create multiple threads for your ideas.
edit: also, jake murdered it with his wall of convo's <3

I agree and disagree with parts of this thread.
The message I got from your comments: Cleric is nearly balanced, but still outstrips other healing classes in balance, while BM and Mystic are weaker, and underplayed as a result (I disagree with your analysis of Disciple. In it's current implementation it is a very competitive spec).
I think you misunderstand my intentions in making this thread. I made this thread to bring up key points in each healer class to promote discussion and hopefully nerf or buff some of the healer classes. I don't want to flood the forums with multiple posts, but at the same time I want to bring attention to some of the most underplayed classes. I also want some more ideas about buff/nerfs because I KNOW for a FACT that some of the suggestions I suggested are somewhat overpowered or completely overpowered.
 

Oudaiesty

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
I feel like Mystic and BM are on the shorter end of the stick, though I've seen examples of really well played Mystics and BM's. Since i've only played Cleric and fought the others I can't really say too much more than that. I thought about playing the other healer classes, but there wasn't enough there to warrant the time spent leveling them up. (Suuuuuubjective)
 

Licksterboy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Location
USA
My views/opinions on the healer family:

Cleric: Pretty balanced now, doesn't need anymore big nerfs.

Mystic: Also balanced but could use another HoT skill. (Or some other incentive to choose this class over cleric)

Bloodmage: If anything, it needs a nerf, I've been playing bloodmage a lot lately and it is very strong in a 1v1. I would like to see bloodmage become more support though rather than all muscle. Bloodmage's chant is also a very unsettling topic, it heals for 169 health to the bloodmage. (I've been pondering the idea to ask for a buff but I feel that I do perfectly fine with it's status now and the class would be much too strong) In the end, it does not need to have adjusted health regents or cool down times at this time.

Disciple: To be honest, disciple is a very, very, strong class. I know for a fact it obliterates casters. As a bloodmage I get destroyed in seconds since almost all of my skills have a warm up time. If you combine force pull/push, smite, ironfirst and flyingkick, that adds up to a lot of raw damage. Does not need a large buff, probably better off without any type of buff.
 

Pies207

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
May 23, 2012
From my experience as a disciple i would say they are definitely a force to be reckoned with sometimes even seeing the better players take on and kill paladins 1v1. Bloodmage seems like a VERY cool idea to me but seems as though its low heals and health costs take it out of the players decision choice when picking a healer spec. Mystics are also very cool but in no case have i seen an equally skilled mystic take on an equally skilled cleric, the mystic may not be the main healer class but it in no way out-armors/damages/heals a cleric making it almost an inferior choice. Something needs to be thrown mystic's way maybe another spot-on heal or raw damage spell? I hope the balance team takes another look at this post or at least reconsiders how mystics low HoT spells are typically out DPS'd.
 

Licksterboy

Legacy Supporter 3
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Location
USA
I don't understand why most of you consider bloodmage to be a very weak class...

Two drainsouls + soulleech + boilblood = 630 damage while the bloodmage can kite (taking minimum damage) and then heal 330 hp just from using those skills. In addition, it's a class that has 935 hp, they have a 5 second silence, a 7 second movement and attack speed slow, and even a skill that can steal up to 3 buffs.

Now, of course they use 400 hp to cast all those skills but gain 330 back along with chant

It's a hard class to play since there are so many factors that can kill you but a very strong ally/enemy if played right.


As for mystic, a good mystic can take out a cleric if the mystic kites and uses root. But, as we all know a cleric is obviously better support. So like numerous people have said, it needs an extra something.


Disciple, very strong and supportive class if played right. Although it can get shut down by a few classes, that's the way the server works, every class will counter another.
 

Pies207

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
May 23, 2012
I
I don't understand why most of you consider bloodmage to be a very weak class...

Two drainsouls + soulleech + boilblood = 630 damage while the bloodmage can kite (taking minimum damage) and then heal 330 hp just from using those skills. In addition, it's a class that has 935 hp, they have a 5 second silence, a 7 second movement and attack speed slow, and even a skill that can steal up to 3 buffs.

Now, of course they use 400 hp to cast all those skills but gain 330 back along with chant

It's a hard class to play since there are so many factors that can kill you but a very strong ally/enemy if played right.


As for mystic, a good mystic can take out a cleric if the mystic kites and uses root. But, as we all know a cleric is obviously better support. So like numerous people have said, it needs an extra something.


Disciple, very strong and supportive class if played right. Although it can get shut down by a few classes, that's the way the server works, every class will counter another.
I agree with most all of this and I don't think bloodmage is a BAD nor WEAK class but all the reagents and time it takes to get health back is just destroyed by clerics simplicity. And yes maybe a good mystic can beat a cleric in a healing battle/usefulness but there are only 4 current MASTERED mystics that even exist. All I really think is necessary is a replacement of one of mystics skills with another damage/heal that gives mystic the "Omg that sounds awesome effect" that it's HoTs almost provide.
 

Solidze

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
I
I agree with most all of this and I don't think bloodmage is a BAD nor WEAK class but all the reagents and time it takes to get health back is just destroyed by clerics simplicity. And yes maybe a good mystic can beat a cleric but there are only 4 current MASTERED mystics that even exist. All I really think is necessary is a replacement of one of mystics skills with another damage/heal that gives mystic the "Omg that sounds awesome effect" that it's HoTs almost provide.

Whoa, how did this turn into a "Mystic fighting a cleric" thread? No one is talking about Mystic vs Cleric fighting each other, we are talking about Mystic healing/support compared to Cleric.
 

leftovers5

Legacy Supporter 8
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
USA
I don't understand why most of you consider bloodmage to be a very weak class...

Two drainsouls + soulleech + boilblood = 630 damage while the bloodmage can kite (taking minimum damage) and then heal 330 hp just from using those skills. In addition, it's a class that has 935 hp, they have a 5 second silence, a 7 second movement and attack speed slow, and even a skill that can steal up to 3 buffs.

Now, of course they use 400 hp to cast all those skills but gain 330 back along with chant

It's a hard class to play since there are so many factors that can kill you but a very strong ally/enemy if played right.
Bloodmage is one of the strongest classes in the game, but because they're "hard to play" people don't gravitate towards them.
 

Pies207

Legacy Supporter 4
Joined
May 23, 2012
Whoa, how did this turn into a "Mystic fighting a cleric" thread? No one is talking about Mystic vs Cleric fighting each other, we are talking about Mystic healing/support compared to Cleric.
That's not my main point I'm saying in no way would I decide to pick a mystic over a cleric as an ally because its raw healing power and armor and damage is lower.
 

Solidze

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
That's not my main point I'm saying in no way would I decide to pick a mystic over a cleric as an ally because its raw healing power and armor and damage is lower.

Agreed, we can throw out a bit more damage than a Cleric but that's away from the point. I rarely get to use my damage spells in a fight because I'm busy healing members. I agree and we've seen it this pvp tournament, people will take a cleric over a mystic for these reasons:

-Strong single target heals.
-Strong group heals
-25% weapon damage buff
-Invulns
-Strong survival, which overall results in more healing output.

Best of all worlds.
 

Dreamcycler

Legacy Supporter 5
Joined
Jun 18, 2012
Personally I think Bloodmage would be awesome if it Had a heal over time like rejuvenate on Mystics
 

Solidze

Legacy Supporter 6
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
Personally I think Bloodmage would be awesome if it Had a heal over time like rejuvenate on Mystics

It would be cool if they reworked BloodBond to this, healing overtime (a % of your damage dealt) to your entire party. When you go through a blood transfusion it takes time, hence BloodBond should work like this. Anyways BloodBond is still broken as far as I know (doesn't heal) and when it did it healed for 10 hp every 8 seconds, which is terrible. Bloodmage is a more offensive class, so the healing shouldn't be "huge" but it should be at least healing for around 60-80 every 10 seconds.
 
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